Forum Activity for @ag-murton

I discovered that there's a very good luthier who lives down the road from me. He said I should bring the instrument round tomorrow and he'll have a look. 

I'll be sure to let you guys know what he says. 

Another thing I should mention is that the middle string is not equidistant between the bass and melody strings. It's closer to the bass string. I saw another Roosebeck owner mention this in another forum so I don't know if that's by design on their part. I can't really see the utility in that. 

Also, the melody strings are about 4mm (0.157 inch) apart. I'm not sure what the ideal distance is but it seems like a larger gap than I've seen on other dulcimers.

I could almost certainly make a new nut and bridge or cut the desired slots myself but there's no harm in having a pro check it out.

There are some tuners which appear to be planetary on Ali Express for under $15 for a set of 4. The only review gave them a rating of 1 out of 5. Anyone want to risk ordering them and reporting back?

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804893006078.html?src=google&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&gclsrc=aw.ds&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&gclsrc=aw.ds&albagn=888888&ds_e_adid=&ds_e_matchtype=&ds_e_device=c&ds_e_network=x&ds_e_product_group_id=&ds_e_product_id=en3256804893006078&ds_e_product_merchant_id=108902014&ds_e_product_country=US&ds_e_product_language=en&ds_e_product_channel=online&ds_e_product_store_id=&ds_url_v=2&albcp=19235666539&albag=&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwmYCzBhA6EiwAxFwfgFXrUvs90KP-kPcSvqLyy7rHekyiQDsj8o3i9XTEbR55V5L3Zu18MhoCHkAQAvD_BwE&aff_fcid=2f0caf44291a45238b3f743bdc657b33-1717598814106-09948-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=2f0caf44291a45238b3f743bdc657b33-1717598814106-09948-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=47c494e9bbda4caf8033935b2dddd1b1&afSmartRedirect=y&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

That's a very interesting point about the tuners. I hadn't thought of that.

Out of interest, I detailed my problem to the customer service department of the supplier and this was their (somewhat dubious) response:

Thank you for your very detailed inquiry. 

I talked to the repair shop at Roosebeck and they are more in the position that their instruments were not designed to be "customized", and that using the instrument with any fewer strings than designed will cause an imbalance that is causing the movement.

They say the only way to keep the bridge and nut from moving is to glue it down. They use Loctite glue.

Of the various options you have compiled, it seems if you want to keep the two pieces from slipping or moving around, but don't want to glue it down, you may want to try spraying the back of the pieces with non-permanent spray adhesive, they stuff they use on fabrics, headliners, etc. If you search on Amazon, you may find a liquid non permanent adhesive. This would be the preferred option versus permanent glue or screws into the wood.

If the adhesive solution does not hold tight enough and you have to resort to screwing things in place, go peruse the Home Depot isle where they stock screws and brackets, you can most likely find a very small screw/bracket/washer that you can screw into the sides of the bridge to lock it in place.

Should be a selection of washers like this at Home Depot for you to find the right size, then you would need a very small wood screw.

Sorry we can't offer an exact solution, but it looks like you have explored all the options.

Those look like high-end, planetary tuners in those Roosebeck dulcimers.  I'm surprised to see they're using those relatively expensive ones on their "cheap" instruments from Pakistan.

It may be that the tuners on your instrument were not correctly installed. I looked ans some Amazon ads for these instruments, and they have the thick round part which is in the groove on your instrument on the outside, and only a washer and nut on the inside.

See the tuners on these two ads.

https://www.amazon.com/Roosebeck-DMCRT4-4-String-Mountain-Dulcimer/dp/B006GVLT3Y/ref=m_crc_lf_rg_d_t1_d_sccl_3_3/137-3203011-0015343?pd_rd_w=jiiG6&content-id=amzn1.sym.fe77186e-e843-43d6-98bc-9f11dffb90ae&pf_rd_p=fe77186e-e843-43d6-98bc-9f11dffb90ae&pf_rd_r=WB1M7368613PAJEQA5RY&pd_rd_wg=lnXPn&pd_rd_r=4cc26045-876c-4550-b1d2-e1605ef0aefc&pd_rd_i=B006GVLT3Y&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Roosebeck-Mountain-Dulcimer-4-String-Fretboard/dp/B076564C5C/ref=pd_ci_mcx_pspc_dp_d_2_t_3?pd_rd_w=tU68I&content-id=amzn1.sym.568f3b6b-5aad-4bfd-98ee-d827f03151e4&pf_rd_p=568f3b6b-5aad-4bfd-98ee-d827f03151e4&pf_rd_r=EN347QDZGAK4X4P433KW&pd_rd_wg=tDlKX&pd_rd_r=7ee66d5e-6b16-4b7d-980b-109ad02e2a8d&pd_rd_i=B076564C5C

Looking at photo img-20240604-210414-914.jpg it seems clear to me that the problem is the result of putting fancy tuners of some sort on an instrument designed for simple ones. The large angle of the bass string lead is pulling the nut toward the melody side. Replacing that one tuner could go a long way toward a fix.

Strings should run as straight as possible above the nut, with any pull on a tuning peg toward the outside. With a slot in the head for the strings, any fastener on the inside makes the string lead worse.

The nut would not be moving if it was thick enough to wedge itself in the groove which positions it, that is a precision issue. I might be that simply putting one or more pieces of paper of tape on the head side of the nut might create the necessary friction. You could also make a new nut.

I like NateBuildsToys' spacer suggestion also.

Super glue is the simple patch solution, and maybe the best..

I'm glad my friends here were able to help you, Andrew. The next time you decide to change your strings I would do as suggested and put a drop of glue under the nut and the bridge to keep them from moving when you put the new strings on. If they are not secured in place they will slide in the slots as you've discovered. You are conquering the idiosyncrasies of the mountain dulcimer. Stick with it, you are doing well.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Haha no worries. I need all the help I can get!

Thanks to everyone for helping me out with this issue. It's awesome to have such a helpful community to turn to.

I'll post an update in case someone has a similar issue down the line. 

LOL whoops, I typed out almost the exact same message you did at the same time

Both the bridge and nut look to be in slots. If I am understanding correctly, the issue is that they do not fit snugly into the slots and are not glued into place, so the bridge and nut are being pulled sideways in their slots by the force of the low D string.

After seeing the photos, I definitely think that you should remove the strings, and then glue the nut and bridge into place, taking serious care to make sure that they are perfectly centered on the fingerboard, and also being very careful to make sure that the nut is held firmly in place while the glue sets. you seriously want to avoid leaving any kind of gap between the nut and the fingerboard, as that will mess up your intonation. On some dulcimers, the bridge and nut can be replaced for different string arrangements, but your bridge and nut have slots for both of the common arrangements, so probably the bridge and nut were not intended to be sitting loosely.

The nut and bridge are in their slots. They are sliding in their slots towards the melody string due to the tension in the bass string when I tune the melody strings down to A. There's no problem in Dadd and the scale is nearly perfect. Slightly sharp after the tenth fret, but not noticeably so. I'm just beginning to learn so I'm not too worried about that. 

It seems my best option is to put a couple of spots of glue and keep an eye on it. I might also make myself a spacer as suggested in one of the posts. 

[quote="NateBuildsToys"]

I had no idea there were so many factors to consider. I'm used to switching between tunings on the banjo like crazy and assumed I'd have a similar experience on the dulcimer.

[/quote] 
It's not usually an issue, but with a mass produced dulcimer, there may be small manufacturing oversights to resolve. I would say the easiest solution is definitely to just glue both the bridge and nut into their slots with a drop or two of superglue. You probably don't want to use a bunch of glue, to avoid mess and in case you later want to replace them.

[/quote] 

Probably a good solution, though not having a firm seat for the saddle robs the dulcimer of full response being delivered to the fretboard and soundboard.

If there is a way to find out whether the problem is inaccurate flatting in the bottom of the saddle or of its seat in the fretboard, and fixing the problem, the Roosebeck might sound a lot better, and be more responsive.

And yes, AG, I understand being out of the U.S. and wanting a dulcimer that isn't a budget-buster. Good luck with your Roosebeck!

Both nuts and bridges are often set into slots on the fretboard.  You SHOULD be able to "switch between tuning... like crazy" without any issue.  And many of us do. 

However.  You did say it is a Roosebeck, and they are not particularly known for their precision.  And of course the VSL is the most crucial measurement on the instrument.  

Hopefully there are marks on the fretboard which show exactly where the nut was originally located.  If so, I would definitely Superglue it in place with a couple drops of glue.  If there are also marks which show exactly where the bridge was, I would glue it in place with a couple drops of Rubber Cement.  Rubber cement should be strong enough to hold the bridge in place when everything is under tension, Then I would get out my tuner and check the accuracy of the scale up and down the fretboard. Once satisfied that the scale is true, then I would use a sharp knife or awl to cut a line in the fretboard to exactly locate things again if necessary...  

@dwain-wilder thanks for the information. Here are a few pictures of the instrument. I understand your reservations about foreign-made instruments.

However, living in South Africa and not having a lot of money limits me somewhat in terms of access to American instruments.

I read quite positive things about the roosebeck Grace and was just able to afford it from Amazon, so I need to make it work. I must say it sounds really nice. And it feels nice to play. Even the action is great. I just encountered this problem today when I took the second melody string off. 

The bridge and nut did move around when I tuned it up the first time but aligned perfectly on their own once I got it to DAdd. 

 IMG_20240604_210415_417.jpg - 108KB

Thank you so much @nate and @skip. Those are very helpful suggestions. 

I had no idea there were so many factors to consider. I'm used to switching between tunings on the banjo like crazy and assumed I'd have a similar experience on the dulcimer. You live and learn. 

Much appreciated. 

That suggests that either (or all) the fretboard and saddle and nut are not flat. If you have a good straight-edge ruler you can use that to find which (if any) of them are flat.

If none are flat, you can approximate a mating by holding a piece of sandpaper against the fretboard in the area the nut should sit and rubbing the nut along the fretboard in very short strokes. Use 120A sandpaper for this (120 is the grit size, A designates a light paper backing. A heavier backing will not give as accurate a match between the surfaces).

It seems Roosebecks are dulcumer-shaped objects made in Pakistan (see https://riverboatmusic.com/app_dulc/app_dulc.htm)

Given that, my estimate is there is no guarantee that the fret placement is accurate. I am very surprised that the nut does not have a slot to sit in! Determining where both the nut and the saddle should be is a problem that requires some precise measurements between various frets. 

A couple of close-up photos of the fretboard in the region of the nut and the saddle might be helpful in suggesting how to deal with this instrument's troubles.

I have one dulcimer with this issue and what I noticed is that without the second melody string, my whole bridge and nut slide juuuust enough to recenter the strings on the fretboard almost perfectly, lol. Actually ended up deciding not to fix it.

It is not normal though. Typically, when the bridge and nut are both unglued it is best to have string spacers past them, which hold the strings in the correct places. Normally the nut serves as a spacer on the head end, and the anchor pins correctly space the strings at the tail end, but since your nut is not glued down, I would say there are two possible fixed that come to mind:
1: Simply glue the nut into it's slot. I personally think that gluing things down that weren't built to be glued can be bad practice down the line, but typically on many dulcimers, the nut would already be glued in.

2 Build a small "string spacer." It could look something like this simple drawing.

The spacer would be placed under the strings, just past the nut toward the pegbox, and would relieve that pressure pulling sideways before the tension gets to the nut.  The spacer should be about 1/8" wider than the fingerboard, and that extra width should hang off the bass side with a small "leg" that can hold onto the corner of the fingerboard to keep it from pulling. The spacer should be made of a hardwood, with slots cut at the same spacing as the slots on the nut. Make sure the slots are deep, so the strings arent being lifted off the nut by the spacer. I would recommend doing this, because it doesnt damage or alter the dulcimer. The piece could be made easily and can be removed at any time.

First try changing the string slot or possibly the anchor point. The last thing is a single spot of glue to anchor them [may need to be replaced in the future]. A thin piece of paper/foil behind the bridge [anchor side of bridge] may tighten the slot enough to prevent the bridge from sliding. 

If you retuned from DAdd, you may need to install a melody string the same size as the middle string. The melody string used for DAdd is usually smaller/lighter gauge than the middle so when it's loosened to A the tension goes down.

Update: I've put the second melody string back on now but the bridge and nut still won't sit flush. I'm tuned DAA.

Hi all.

I'm having a problem with my brand new Roosebeck dulcimer. 

I tried to remove one of the melody strings but when I did, the bridge and nut shifted to the left (away from the bass string). It seems the tension in the bass string combined with the angle the string takes from the nut to the tuner overpowers the opposing force of just one melody string. 

I'm new to dulcimer so I'm wondering if my instrument is just set up so that it only works properly with two melody strings or if it's normal for the bridge and nut to shift like that (I would assume not).

Any advice is appreciated.

Andrew.

Thanks for the replies. I just thought there might be an off-chance that someone here knew of him. I'll post some pictures when I'm not plumb wore out! We're six hours ahead of EST over here.

Well, I'll make it a three-peat! 

I've never heard of that guy either, but then a lot of folks could say that about ME, too! 

I'm interested as well in seeing a photo or two of the Norris dulcimer.

Like Ken I haven't heard of James Norris. My guess is that he was not a prolific builder and sold most dulcimers he made locally. Also, like Ken, I'd be interested in seeing some photos of the dulcimer.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Sorry to say I've NOT heard of James Norris.  Can't find any  trace of him, either -- no newspaper stories, no obituary etc. There are hundreds, if not thousands of folks who build a dulcimer or ten or twenty; he could be one of those.   

Can you post photos of the dulcimer you have?  Teardrop shapes aren't as common in Kentucky as the hourglass

You're welcome to use more descriptive song titles if you think it would help people, Randy. 

Should this ban on creative thought also apply to song titles? Shouldn't the song titles posted here at fotmd give some idea of what the lyrics may be?

The reference to long neck banjos being folk banjos probably harks back to Pete Seeger elongating the neck of his banjo by three frets. Many of the banjo players in folk groups in the late 1950s and 60s copied this and banjo manufacturers such as Gibson and Vega offered long neck models. My first banjo was a Gibson RB175 long neck. Unfortunately my arms were too short to continue playing it. I liked the sound of that banjo. Maybe some day I will find an RB170 for sale that I can afford. It's the short neck version of the long neck "folk" banjo.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song." 

" .... Apparently, he strung them with Black Diamond guitar strings....."

"Dulcimer strings" have only been sold for 20 years or so. Before that your major choices were guitar or banjo strings or piano wire. I believe that banjo strings were the general preference.

"......  The frets appeared to be staples..... "

Staple frets were common before 1950, and are still used on "reproduction instruments" made by several of the members of this forum.

The bulk of Niles' work was before the beginning of the popularization of "folk music" about 1950. He was very much an academic musician based at UK. I suspect that he liked to be the center of attention and performed accordingly.

In the early sixties, I went with a banjo playing friend to see Pete play at a high school in Hamilton, Ontario.  My english teacher, who knew that I was a folkie, gave me a poster for this show which hung in my room as long as I loived with my parents.  Although I wouldn't get my first banjo till the early seventies, I did buy Pete's red banjo book and practised banjo techniques on the guitar.
I last saw Pete at Hugh's Room in 2014.  He played the whole night standing, and, though his voice was very frail, he had no trouble getting the audience singing along.

Here's Pete walking past Maggie to the stage.  

 Maggie & Pete.jpg - 84KB

Now, I understand what the others were trying to say. I must test this tomorrow. I feel much better.

Thanks to all of you.

A group of us visited the Niles Center back in 2018. We were able to not only view, but also handle all of the instruments. Niles had some interesting ideas. Listening to him play and sing is an "acquired taste." While he did build some instruments, as John said "he had some builders make him dulcimers." Dr. Pen has the most knowledge of anyone I know about Niles and his instruments. Dr. Carr was very gracious in hosting us at the Center. We did see some patterns and drawings he made for some of the instruments. I don't know if there are any specific articles about the instruments themselves which talk about why he did what with a particular dulcimer.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

The test instrument is a tuner. Tighten the string until the tuner indicates you're at the correct pitch. If you use DAd it's D3-A3-d4 on the tuner or D3-A3-A3 for DAA. You stop when you reach the pitch target. This all assumes you have the correct strings for the tuning to be used.

This works because the note frequency/pitch is dependent on the tension and mass [size and material] of the string. The string calculator uses a formula to determine the appropriate size string for a frequency/pitch, the tuner reports the frequency/pitch. If an inappropriate string is used it may break or cause damage.

John Jacob Niles was a unique (only one of its kind) individual, it seems. 

He liked to give "theatrical" performances with his dulcimers, interpreting a folk song rather than just playing it.  He had some dulcimer builders make him dulcimers, with no frets installed, so he could add his unique fret patterns to enable him to get the musical effect he was shooting for.  And he sang some very high-pitched melodies.  Takes some getting used to...

Hi everyone- just a reminder to please create a thread or post title that gives a hint of what your new thread is about. It will really help when folks are browsing thread topics to find things that interest them, or to find threads they may be able to help provide answers to.

For example, if seeking suggestions on glue to use in instrument making, call your thread "Which glue should I use?" instead of "Question on dulcimer making". Or if looking for advice on jam playing etiquette, call your thread "Jamming etiquette" instead of "playing question".  It makes browsing this site much more enjoyable, efficient, and... I guarantee you'll get more and better replies from others this way!
Thanks!

A few years ago, I was at the Niles Center at UK and got to see his dulcimers up close. Man, those things are wild! Apparently, he strung them with Black Diamond guitar strings. The frets appeared to be staples. He used them to strum as accompaniment. They were beautiful but also kind of crude, and according to most experts had pretty bad sound. I had the pleasure of speaking with his biographer, Ron Pen. He said he tuned one up once and tried to play it a bit. Anyone have any knowledge of Niles's dulcimers? They're fascinating to me.

I always appreciated Big Bill Broonzy's definition: "All the songs I ever heard were folk songs, I never heard horses singin' any of 'em."

Hello! I live in Europe (born and raised in KY) and today I was browsing the website of a chain of music stores here called "Muziker." I was intrigued by the fact that their acoustic guitar section was divided into three sections: "dreadnought," "jumbo," and "folk." The first two were self-explanatory, but I was curious about the third. It seemed to be mostly parlor and 0-shaped guitars, with one very pretty archtop thrown in. Furthermore, I've heard banjo players here refer to longnecked banjos as "folk banjos." The plot thickens.

Hello, friends! New to the forums. I just wanted to ask if anyone here is familiar with a dulcimer maker from Deanefield, KY, named James C. Norris? I bought one of his dulcimers off eBay about 6 or 7 years ago, though not from him directly, afaik. It's a beautiful teardrop-shaped instrument with 4 heart and teardrop sound-holes and looks to be all apple or cherry wood. I believe the dot inlays are MOP. It's definitely handmade because the inlays are a little askew, lol. Despite its slightly rough-and-tumble appearance, it has a beautiful sound. It also has the 2nd and 10th fret of a traditional mountain dulcimer bisected with an additional fret.

Anyway, there's a sticker visible on the inside with the handwritten name "James C. Norris" and "Deanefield, KY." It also identifies the instrument as "#10," and that it was made in 2001. I have googled all this information several times over the years with zilch to show for it. It's driving me 'round the bend. Deanefield is in Ohio County, south of Owensboro, in Bill Monroe country. I thought if anyplace could help me, this could! Thanks!